I hate Quasimoto! details inside

Eleven11

Trusted Member
the dinosaur and fossil thing always got me also -where do they fit in????
I never actually believed that God created the Earth. I believe it was here along with a lot of species, God just "tweaked" things to suit our needs ???
Just a theory. Some things may have evolved but it doesn't apply to us..................11
 

bowflex2000

New member
Thanks guys. I appreciate it.
Damn everyone, get off Quasi's dick.
jk :D

The Big Misconception
by Phillip Dorrell

One of the biggest misconceptions about the Second Law of Thermodynamics is that it prohibits a decrease of entropy in a closed system.

It doesn't. What it does prohibit, and here I am being loose with the meaning of the word "prohibit", is a large decrease of entropy in a closed system. (What do I mean by "large"? I'll get to that soon.)

It is this myth of absolute prohibition that underlies the persistence of the creationist second-law-of-thermodynamics argument against the theory of evolution. Until the defenders of evolution recognize that evolution does require the occurrence of entropy decreases within closed systems, and that the Second Law does not prohibit these decreases, this argument will not fade into the obscurity that it deserves.
So What Does the Second Law of Thermodynamics Really Say?

The big achievement of statistical mechanics is the unification of two different notions of entropy. The first notion is entropy as the integral of dQ/T for reversible processes, where Q represents heat energy and T is temperature. The second notion of entropy is the negative logarithm of a probability, i.e. -log P where P is the probability.

To properly reconcile these two notions of entropy, you have to introduce a constant, which is called Boltzmann's constant, named after Ludwig Boltzmann, who discovered the relationship between these two types of entropy. The two equations of entropy are:
(with equality holding only for reversible processes)

and

(where k is Boltzmann's constant)

The value of k is 1.3806505 × 10-23 Joules/degree Kelvin. One way to understand this constant is to realise that the only reason it isn't equal to 1 is because we chose the wrong unit for temperature. If we deem k to be equal to 1, then the unit of temperature becomes the unit of energy per bit (give or take a factor of loge2, because "bits" represent a logarithm base 2, and the standard definition of entropy uses a logarithm base of e).
The Second Law Before Boltzmann

The Second Law was known before Boltzmann, when it was stated entirely in terms of the thermodynamic definition of entropy. The probabilistic interpretation of entropy was unknown, and the size of entropy involved was always so great that the corresponding probability was so small as to be indistinguishable from zero. Thus the prohibition.

But now we do know the probabilistic interpretation, and we can state that a decrease in entropy (in a closed system) is not prohibited, but that the maximum probability of it occurring is the probability corresponding to the required entropy decrease.
So How Large is "Large"?

What counts as a "large" entropy corresponds to whatever you wish to consider as an impossibly "small" probability. If we measure entropy in "bits" (i.e. log2), then 1 bit corresponds to a 50% probability (which isn't at all "small"), 10 bits corresponds to roughly 0.1% ("smallish") and 20 bits to one in a million ("quite small", but still not "impossibly small").

On a personal level, there are at most 4,000,000,000 seconds in your life, and if you observed a particular type of event once per second, you would probably never observe an outcome of that type of event which had a probability of 1/1,000,000,000,000, which corresponds to about 40 bits.

If we consider all the people in the world, that adds a factor of less than 8,000,000,000, corresponding to another 33 bits, i.e. 73 bits in total. If we consider events occuring 1023 times a second (the fastest timescale normally observed in particle physics), over 1010 years (the age of the universe) in positions spaced an atom width apart (about 10-9 metres) over the observable universe (of diameter about 1010 light years), then this gives a maximum number of observations of about:



This corresponds to a little less than 500 bits. In other words, in the entire history of the observable universe, it is very unlikely that a spontaneous decrease of entropy of 500 bits has ever occurred within a closed system.

For comparison, consider a macroscopic thermodynamic system. A very simple example is that of 2 grams of hydrogen gas in a closed cylinder, which corresponds to about 22 litres at room temperature and pressure. Consider the entropy required to compress this cylinder to half its original volume. It is easy to calculate the required entropy decrease from first principles, because it is the probability that each molecule will be found to be in a chosen half of the original volume, i.e. 2-N where N is the number of molecules, which in this case is equal to Avogadro's number = 6.02 × -23. In other words, 602,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 bits. Which is, as you may notice, way more than 500 bits. Even if we consider this problem with a volume which is one million times smaller in each direction (i.e. a cube about 1/3000 of a millimetre on each side, which is much smaller than you can see with the naked eye), we are still talking about 602,300 bits. And the corresponding probability of 2-602,000 is so unimaginably small as to be indistinguishable from "it ain't going to happen", and then some.

It follows that it is quite reasonable to be dogmatic about the impossibility of a macroscopic decrease in entropy in a closed system, even though it is incorrect to state that any decrease in entropy is impossible.
Granville Sewell

Granville Sewell is a Professor of Mathematics at the University of Texas El Paso, and last year (2005) John Wiley and Sons, Inc. published the second edition of his textbook "The Numerical Solution of Ordinary and Partial Differential Equations". Towards the end of this textbook there are some appendices, and in particular there is an Appendix D, which is titled "Can ANYTHING Happen in an Open System?". Appendix D is a restatement of the infamous creationist Second-Law-of-Thermodynamics argument against evolution.

Of course an appendix in a John Wiley and Sons, Inc. textbook written by a Professor of Mathematics sounds pretty impressive, and we might wonder what motivated John Wiley & Sons to allow such material into a textbook (it's too advanced for a school textbook, so there's nothing to be gained from trying to please American textbook censors etc.)

Anyway, the appendix contains lots of equations, including the equation of heat diffusion. On page 2 of the appendix, after the equation numbered D.5, Sewell states:

Hence, in a closed system, entropy can never decrease.

And he reiterates this statement and variations upon it on pages 3 and 4, as he makes his argument that evolution cannot occur, not even in an "open" system.

But if you have got this far through my article, you will already realize what the fallacy is: the assumption that the second law prevents any decrease in entropy in a closed system. Sewell's equations, with differentials and integrals, look impressive, but they all assume the macroscopic approximation: that any possible decrease in entropy being considered is "large" in the sense already described. The differential equation for heat diffusion assumes that random variations are so small relative to the volume being considered that they can be ignored. Whereas evolution by natural selection happens a few molecules at a time, often just one molecule at a time – when a DNA base gets replaced by another DNA base in a "lucky" (i.e. fitness-increasing) mutation. It's not surprising, if you make an argument based on differential equations which are derived in a manner that ignore random variations, that you will disprove the possibility of evolution by natural selection, whose basic mechanism is that of random variation. Unsurprising, but, unfortunately for the advancement of creationist "science", not very interesting.

Whether Appendix D will survive into Edition 3 of the textbook is anybody's guess. Granville Sewell might not be embarrassed by it, but I think John Wiley & Sons should be.

And for a fuller analysis of the thermodynamics of evolution by natural selection, you can read my article Evolution and the Second Law of Thermodynamics. <--- which is here http://www.1729.com/evolution/2ndlaw.html
 
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juiced2damax

Trusted Member
If it wasn't for quasi I wouldn't be getting made fun of by everyone at work when they pass my desk and see a big bottle of prenatal vitamins so YES I also am part of the hate club for Quasi!! :D
 

Quasimoto

Banned
No thread with my handle in the header would be complete without Bowflex chiming into to contest it. Whats new.

Bow , You're comparing something that a 2d shoot-em-up java programmer, lifted from Henry Morris (a creationist) and placed in his blog , to a Penn State professor of engineering ?

I'm not interested in what Dorrell has to say, Or what he's chose to lift from an academic. I'm allot more interested into what you personally think, and why ? No lifting other authors material, no plagiarizing, just what do YOU think ?
 

Quasimoto

Banned
If it wasn't for quasi I wouldn't be getting made fun of by everyone at work when they pass my desk and see a big bottle of prenatal vitamins so YES I also am part of the hate club for Quasi!! :D
You could hate me for letting you pay 3-4 times as much for a vitamin that isn't on par with what you're currently using !
 

bowflex2000

New member
No thread with my handle in the header would be complete without Bowflex chiming into to contest it. Whats new.

Bow , You're comparing something that a 2d shoot-em-up java programmer, lifted from Henry Morris (a creationist) and placed in his blog , to a Penn State professor of engineering ?

I'm not interested in what Dorrell has to say, Or what he's chose to lift from an academic. I'm allot more interested into what you personally think, and why ? No lifting other authors material, no plagiarizing, just what do YOU think ?
lol that was just a quick response to keep my reputation up.

I have been doing my homework on it though and some of it is over my head, but I'll try and discuss it with you soon. I was going to post what I have now but I rather get a deeper understanding of it.

But it has questioned my belief in some form of a Supreme Being, or maybe even a Creator.
 

.!.

Member
i saw bow's response with the equations in it and had to skip right over it (sorry bow)

but this shit is SO beyond me.

im not a real religious man, did the whole church thing when i was younger, but stopped when i reached high school

me personally, we evolved from apes. overtime, we adapted to our surroundings and grew more and more intelligent, well some of us did :D

god i wish i graduated with more of a gpa so i could add more to this conversation.
 

shaqdeezl

Trusted Member
Much of what we read in religious texts was put there to control us. Almost 20 years of the life of the most captivating man to ever walk the planet is not included in the Bible. How in the world is that possible unless someone simply did not want us to see it?

Anyway. To keep this thread in check with the title...I, too, hate Quasimoto. :D Even during our most heated debates I kept reading Q's posts. He thinks deep.
 

.!.

Member
well shit, even the bible is kinda shady if you ask me

its one big book made up of all different stories written by different people.

i belive someone/group of people pieced it all together to make the bible, they decided what stories would go in bible. its kinda biased then right?
 

Quasimoto

Banned
i belive someone/group of people pieced it all together to make the bible, they decided what stories would go in bible. its kinda biased then right?
Yes, you are correct.

General Constantine formed the Tribal counsel of Nicea , which decided between all of the different religious books in Mesopotamia, what would be edited, included or omitted from what would become the official Christian cannon.
 

bowflex2000

New member
o and Quasi thanks for the extra homework on the 2012 Mayan Conspiracy deal.

But I will find more time to devote to giving my opinion on the relation of evolution to the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

I would of never expected to develop extra academic interests from an AAS board, aren't we supposed to be a bunch of low IQ meatheads? (how I love the media)
 

Phreezer

Trusted Member
I have to admit.. Quasi is smarter than I am. Or at least better educated, LOL! (No, he really is smarter)

Out of my own curiosity to hear your personal opinion, I must ask. Do you believe in God? I know you're a Jew.. but do you really believe in the God of Abraham being the Alpha and the Omega? Do you believe in the Parting of the Red Sea and great flood etc?

I respect your opinion and I would genuinely like to know why you choose to believe in God. Like I said, you're a sharp guy and because of this I assume you have spent a great deal of time contemplating religion and which one to align yourself to.

I have a lot of doubts when it comes to organized religion as a whole and when someone who I consider intelligent believes in religion I always want to know why. I've spent my life searching for the "smoking gun" that will make be believe... and when someone I respect believes.. I always harbor a hope that they will be able to share with me some insight that would remove any lingering doubts I might have..
 
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Grizzly

Man Whore Expert
Man, what happened, Phreeze? You used to be pretty faithful. I remember when you said you were having a crisis of faith, but I didn't know it went that far.
 

juaneye

Trusted Member
Man, what happened, Phreeze? You used to be pretty faithful. I remember when you said you were having a crisis of faith, but I didn't know it went that far.
what's the matter with you? that was faith his girl friend he was having a crisis with :D

p.s. 1 more reason i hate quasi....he drives a nicer car than me!
 

.!.

Member
Yes, you are correct.

General Constantine formed the Tribal counsel of Nicea , which decided between all of the different religious books in Mesopotamia, what would be edited, included or omitted from what would become the official Christian cannon.
in my town, i have bible pushers that stand on the corners and spit verses at me. when i stop and ask them about contradictions or things that i dont agree with or topics of the bible that many believe to be false they get all worked up

i mean, shit, jesus could have really dabbled in the world of prostitution? mary magdaline (sp)
 

Quasimoto

Banned
I have to admit.. Quasi is smarter than I am. Or at least better educated, LOL! (No, he really is smarter)
Thanks allot Phreezer. It sincerely means allot to me , especially coming from you.

Out of my own curiosity to hear your personal opinion, I must ask. Do you believe in God? I know you're a Jew.. but do you really believe in the God of Abraham being the Alpha and the Omega? Do you believe in the Parting of the Red Sea and great flood etc?
I'm Jewish by race, and by religion, although I don't practice the religion. As a matter of fact, I don't practice or even subscribe to any religion. I have 'faith', but its not in line with any organized practices.

The God question; If, by God, you mean a creator, I absolutely believe . I am convinced that there was an intelligent designer. I however, don't not believe there is an man or even spirit in the sky , watching everything we do, answering or ignoring prayers , or 'working in strange ways'.

I am sure that there were great floods, there is verifiable evidence everywhere to support this too. I'm ambivalent about a great 'Biblical' flood, one that caused a mass life extinction . I guess the jury is still out on that one for me.

I respect your opinion and I would genuinely like to know why you choose to believe in God. Like I said, you're a sharp guy and because of this I assume you have spent a great deal of time contemplating religion and which one to align yourself to.
I believe there is allot of physical evidence to support a creator. Have you ever heard of the mathematical proportion of Phi ? The proportion is so exact, and yet so repetitive that its impossible to ignore, if you look for it. There are so many examples of it, I could literally make 50 pages of posts of nothing but examples of Phi. Live births of humans, rabbits , fish and bee's ( amongst thousands of others ) . A sunflower, the earths resonant frequency, all are applicable to Phi.

I have a lot of doubts when it comes to organized religion as a whole and when someone who I consider intelligent believes in religion I always want to know why. I've spent my life searching for the "smoking gun" that will make be believe... and when someone I respect believes.. I always harbor a hope that they will be able to share with me some insight that would remove any lingering doubts I might have..
Brother, look into what the Vatican calls , 'the divine proportion' of PHI , and I promise it will renew your optimism, although It likely wont renew your faith in 'religion'. Religion seems to be a unnatural conduit in guiding , and even limiting your own practice of the very faith you were born with. I need no such guidance, and I don't want the bounds of my faith limited . I wont allow it.

If I were you, I'd be encouraged knowing that you are STILL searching for the smoking gun, which means your faith is not exhausted just yet.

Good luck.
 

Quasimoto

Banned
in my town, i have bible pushers that stand on the corners and spit verses at me. when i stop and ask them about contradictions or things that i dont agree with or topics of the bible that many believe to be false they get all worked up

i mean, shit, jesus could have really dabbled in the world of prostitution? mary magdaline (sp)
Most very religious people don't know jack-shit about the tribal council. Why would the church invite those questions that would undoubtedly accompany the premise. Its about faith in the face of doubt, right ?

A group of men, fallible, deciding what was to become the acceptable curriculum and method of practicing their faith ?

Fuck that...
 
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